Boobs, butts, and platypi

Okay, I just laughed so hard I cried at this 11-page thread on a gaming forum on whether female "dragonborn" D&D characters should have big ol' boobies. Highlights include:

- suggestions that they should look like dragons everywhere except their chests and should be drawn with halter tops
- intense discussion of how the platypus has milk but does it through "leaky skin" not mammaries
- the bad spelling of "mamaries" throughout
- Dejah Thoris, egg-laying Martian with an enormous rack -n- crack, brought in as evidence
- Therapsids, our Ancestors. Dinosaurs with bewbs!
- The usefulness of having a +2 Cloaca of Hiding
- Dragon boobs would produce fluids *other* than milk.
- They could be poison sacs, like toads have, but secreting sticky goo so that men who fight them get stuck to their breasts by poisonous slime. (Scarily detailed!)
- The phrase in all seriousness "if you're saying that draconidae are a clade of therapsidae..."
- hidden nipples under the pectoral scales
- "It may be that that is where they incubate their eggs"
- "many muscles used for explosive, pylometric activities "ball up" when they're relaxed"
- "Perhaps at high levels, Dragonborn can shapechange fluidly" (to have breasts)
- Complaints that telling genders apart by color, weird head crests, or any other way other than boobs would be too difficult
- Someone else pointing out that Gold/Bronze on Pern is not hard to tell apart and there's no boobs there
- Boobs with scales would be "not happy" (presumably because human men, or players, are squicked by the very idea of female signifiers that aren't soft and available for grabbing)
- The lone voice of sanity

I loved this bit where someone refuted the egg-pouch theory by claiming no species would be so senselessly designed as to have heavy things pressing on the lungs and heart:

Carrying eggs that high above the center of gravity is horribly inefficient, as it would strain the back, cause problems with balance, and put potentially dangerous pressure against vital life sustaining organs, such as the heart and lungs.

Right. That's why we have breasts there in the first place? I'm loving it!

I'm telling you, most of this wasn't even meant to be funny. It rests on huge amounts of presumption that femaleness itself exists to be consumed by men and defined by them. Huge amounts of entitlement.

Let's return to the lone voice of sanity on the thread, about halfway in:

The next time we're all sitting around wondering why there aren't more girls in D&D, you can think back to this thread.

This nine page long thread about boobs.

Just putting some perspective on here.

Yes. Exactly. Thanks.

No, wait... I keep going back for more. There is another voice of sanity, this one with humor:

Perhaps they are not not breasts so much as two seperate glands each producing a chemical that when combined erupt in flame.

Actually, that's how my breasts work and that's why I don't let anyone mess with them. They're totally lethal. They're nucular. They give a whole new dimension to the phrase "Torpedo tits".

Back to the forum and its total jackpot of dumbassery; an evo-psych argument that humans have fatty bumps on their chests so that they will look like butts, because primates find butt cracks sexy, and since we walk upright and do it face to face sometimes, we like to be looking at some frontal butt-cleavage:

A quite popular theory among biologists is that the form of a woman's busom is meant to emulate that of her behind, which, apparently, is considered tempting to males of all primates. In other words, a human female's breasts are shaped as they are to excite sexual interest in human males, not to provide nourishment to human babies. You'll note how other apes have mammary glands, but not big, round breasts. The reason, according to the biologists, is that only we humans are fully erect, and tend to view our potential partners from the front. If all this is true, it wouldn't be so strange if all fully erect, sexually active species have the same system, even if they do not feed their young with breast milk.

Last time I checked not all human women had "big, round breasts" at least not outside of comic books. But then the punchline came a few posts later:

It certainly makes sense, though, but it does require that the female's buttocks be a sexual symbol to begin with (and that the buttocks be that rough shape). That theory would work for anything with a tail, and maybe for some humanoids with relatively slender tails (especially if they grow a tuft of hair down the cleavage and onto the stomach to simulate a tail) but a reptilian tail just seems a bit too heavy for that to occur - viewing the reptile from behind would result in seeing the tail rather than buttocks.

So if you assume the same evolutionary pressures are in action with the dragonborn, what you could end up with is a monobreast with the point right in the middle to simulate the end of a reptilian tail. Which may end up with a very similar suggestive bulge when you put armour or clothes over it.

Okay aside from how freaking hilarious is, let's think about this a minute...

These guys assume, automatically, that anything branded female is there to be pornified. In fact the trend in that most annoying junk science "evolutionary psychology" is that pretty much the explanation for the existence of any supposed characteristic in women, mental or physical, is "because men want to fuck it".

But back to the humor. It all reminds me of the Very Small Epiphany I had lately as I stared at the mesmerizing buttcrack of an acquaintance of mine. For the generation just below mine, letting their butt crack fly free is just like wearing a low cut shirt to show some cleavage. I amused and horrified Minnie by explaining this and adding the prediction that within 5 years there will be a fashion of pants that go even lower and have lacy or transparent panels in the back to reveal even more subtly shadowed, alluring, sexy crack. She didn't believe me! Fine! But it did come true about how everyone in 10 years would be wearing hats with cat ears... I called that one too.

BONUS DIGRESSION. Courtesy of me, because I'm on page 4 of 15 of the enormous forum thread without any mention of it occurring.

What about dragonborn dick? Do they have penises? Might they be illustrated with enormous jeweled codpieces? Or alluringly bulgy breechcloths? How will we tell? Why do they have them? Why not? Consider the platypus! The dinosaurs! Tars Tarkan's mighty thews and incredible Martianhood! But no, the forum is remarkably silent.

We should start it up over at Iris!

ANYWAY... pop the stack back out to the lizard-boobs, dragons and maidens.

I far prefer the beautiful theory I read recently: We most often see dragons and princesses together because *maidens evolve into dragons*. They shed their maidenly human skins, leaving behind just enough detritus so that their "rescuers" think they've been eaten. And they turn all scaly and huge and fierce and eat their "rescuers". It makes perfect sense.

P.S. If you know the source of the menacing boob-warning symbol above, and you're not L.Q., you win a prize!

Comments

[elswhere]

Daughters of Egalia.

What do I win?? Please tell me it's not a dragon with a huge jeweled codpiece.

[badgerbag]

It is now!

[elswhere]

Arrggggghhhhhh!

[elswhere]

I mean, er: gosh, thank you! It's an honor and a privilege! The dragon will have a special place on my shelf. And in my heart. Also it will cheer me up when I am blue.

Actually, it WOULD cheer me up whenever I looked at it. Not just because winning anything cheers me up, but because it would always remind me of Dragons With Boobs.

[laura queue]

i really like the theory about the maid-to-dragon transmogrifications. transdragons? mtds?

btw, we should really post a link to your blog post on the fsfblog.

[SciencePunk]

Haha, that was hilarious! But I think you should point out that the guy who started it was asking a fairly decent question about how to differentiate male and female dragon-wotsits when drawing them.

From then on in, the single recognisable trait of females seems to be boobs according to these boys.

Any suggestions how the boy could solve his problem? I don't know enough about reptiles to know how the males and females tell one other apart. In fact, I'm almost certain that there are several species that make a point of blurring the distinction...

[Nineveh_uk]

Here via /friends friends solely to say that I know the source of the menacing boob-warning symbol above, but that I can't stop to name it right now because I have to go and phone the housebound to tell him that it's really time he got a new peho. I can't think what he spends the housekeeping money on!

Ahem. A truly marvellous book.

[badgerbag]

Probably he spent it all on beard ribbons and frippery like that... Ah, menwim.

[Lori S.]

"because men want to fuck it"

Which has recently been determined (scientifically, natch) to be a very weak evolutionary selector, because men want to fuck most things anyway, female characteristics or not. I present as my evidence, "Animal, Vegetable, Or Kinda Turns Me On":

http://jezebel.com/350840/bret-michaels-animal-vegetable-it-kinda-turns-me-on

See? Science!

[k]

This may be of interest.

http://www.metafilter.com/68776/But-what-about-the-platypi

[Pat]

I didn't go too far in the conversation, But from the beginning it doesn't seem anything like you make it out to be. The pro-boobers aren't fighting for "big ol' boobies", just for enough suggestion of breast to Identify gender. And they aren't making a claim that its "the single recognisable trait of females", just one that's immediately visually apparent.

Drawing is hard, and it's a difficult way to convey information. Other visual clues of gender are not usable. Putting hair or make-up on them is silly, and clothing clues are alot more gender neutral in a fantasy setting.

They could try larger eyes, but I don't think that'll be enough to help the viewer.

Maybe later in the thread they get immature, but the ones starting the conversation weren't looking for an excuse to draw big ol' titties. They seem to be having a responsible, mature discussion about a sensitive topic. Its you all watching the conversation making the "haha boobies" jokes.

[badgerbag]

Feminists, they just think everything is funny! I've heard they're like that! The wenches.

[CM]

"In fact the trend in that most annoying junk science "evolutionary psychology" is that pretty much the explanation for the existence of any supposed characteristic in women, mental or physical, is "because men want to fuck it"."

If you honestly think that evolutionary psychologists are this unified concerning their methodological principles, let alone on one this specious and absurd, then you should probably avoid commentating on the topic altogether. It's generally best to stick to commenting on things you're actually semi-informed about. Nothing validates blustering pseudo-intellectual rage than tilting at windmills, right?

Hilarious thread though. I'm in agreement there.

[CM]

"In fact the trend in that most annoying junk science "evolutionary psychology" is that pretty much the explanation for the existence of any supposed characteristic in women, mental or physical, is "because men want to fuck it"."

If you honestly think that evolutionary psychologists are this unified concerning their methodological principles, let alone on one this specious and absurd, then you should probably avoid commentating on the topic altogether. It's generally best to stick to commenting on things you're actually semi-informed about. Nothing validates blustering pseudo-intellectual rage than tilting at windmills, right?

Hilarious thread though. I'm in agreement there.

[badgerbag]

Dude... THVHS.
Not to be questioned!

[Captain Platypus]

“...like I'm riding my bike in the park, and this policewoman says ‘Oi! You can't ride your bike on the grass!’ and I go ‘Oh no?’ And her uniform falls off, and she goes ‘Ahh!’ and she's trying to cover up, but I've seen everything anyway. And I get on my bike and I ride off. On the grass.”

[laura queue]

all right i'll be your straight manwom! wtf does THVHS mean????

[anllvr]

these people misspelled mammaries because they've never seen any

[badgerbag]

laura queue: The Hive Vagina Has Spoken!

[Anon]

I just think lizards with tits is dumb. Is that so wrong?

[elizabeth]

I think the comment via the 'tail' and female butt is quite funny, unintentionally so, because there is copious amounts of writing (by men) from 1750-1900 about the erotic nature of the horse ass, and usually comparing it to female butts, and bustles, which only makes me think the guys are staring a little too long at different creature butts.

Yes, a deep and meaningful discussion on a sensative issue - now a genuine deep and meaningful discussion would be about D & D in game castrations, "You have taken X hit points, they hit your groin, you are now castrated" and how to appropriately draw that. Haha. Sorry, it is just in a combat system with lots of swords, that kind of stuff happened more oft in reality than the worry over dragon breasts.

You tit's make fire, mine must be a different design as they squirt face eating acid ala Aliens. I must come from a different Dragon clan.

I recently read a 2009 teen book called 'into the wild nerd yonder' where 'cool' girl loses hair streaks and cool hair color as she slowly gets sucked into D & D (by another girl, who happens to be a sadistic dungeon master), I THINK this was supposed to convince girls that D & D is 'cool'. But had sort of the type of 'moral meaning' of the way old juvie books used to be 'step away from D & D and go outside for a game of sports' now it is 'step away from the computer/facebook and try some 'interaction' through D&D'